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	<title>Comments on: The sage savage</title>
	<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/</link>
	<description>A graduate student in mathematics and a modern languages major take on politics and culture with the following aspirational motto: ‘Deregulate your mind.’</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Curt</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-58022</link>
		<author>Curt</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 15:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-58022</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;By the way, I might have to qualify my evaluation of &lt;i&gt;Tristes tropiques&lt;/i&gt; a bit due to the fact that I hadn't quite finished it when I wrote the last comment.  In one of the last chapters Lévi-Strauss actually does what I said he didn't, namely "seriously question" his basic beliefs.  In this chapter he wonders whether he and those like him in his profession respond to indigenous cultures simply out of a sense of loathing for their own culture and an illusory desire to latch onto anything that seems different.  He avows that primitive peoples were not probably not really freer than members of modern societies, worries that he might be underestimating the progress achieved by modern civilization and acknowledges that there is no "natural man," that man is by nature a social animal and that the natural and cultural elements of humanity are indissolubly linked.  He even consciously subsumes his theory into the greater mass of Rousseau's political thought, seeking by study of  primitive cultures to get at the commonalities which consistitute in the Rousseauian the natural essence of humanity as a prelude to a more active project to reform it by bringing modern culture more into line with its fundamental nature.  Not that I necessarily agree with most of his final conclusions, but he acknowledges and addresses almost all of the questions and objections that had gone complacently untouched elsewhere, which is admirable.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Unfortunately, rather than making that the end of the book he adds two concluding memorably, amazingly bad chapters (remember I said the book was too long).  First he throws over the tone of careful judiciousness in assessing foreign cultures that he has built up through the book and which one would think would be a prerequisite to being an anthropologist by launching into a random, unhinged attack on Islam and then, as if permanently destabilized by that, proceeds to a number of facile characterizations of various religions and cultures (Islam=masculinity, Buddhism=femininity, etc.), engages in some extravagant pessisim by complaining that human society has been in a state of continual decline since its birth, vaguely and incoherently tries to reconcile Marxism and Buddhism before finally sinking into a sea of meaningless, disjointed abstractions.  So I guess the three chapters sort of cancel each other out and I feel about the same about the book's overall quality, just on different grounds now.  If you do read it, just don't read the last two chapters and it will be a much more enjoyable experience.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, I might have to qualify my evaluation of <i>Tristes tropiques</i> a bit due to the fact that I hadn&#8217;t quite finished it when I wrote the last comment.  In one of the last chapters Lévi-Strauss actually does what I said he didn&#8217;t, namely &#8220;seriously question&#8221; his basic beliefs.  In this chapter he wonders whether he and those like him in his profession respond to indigenous cultures simply out of a sense of loathing for their own culture and an illusory desire to latch onto anything that seems different.  He avows that primitive peoples were not probably not really freer than members of modern societies, worries that he might be underestimating the progress achieved by modern civilization and acknowledges that there is no &#8220;natural man,&#8221; that man is by nature a social animal and that the natural and cultural elements of humanity are indissolubly linked.  He even consciously subsumes his theory into the greater mass of Rousseau&#8217;s political thought, seeking by study of  primitive cultures to get at the commonalities which consistitute in the Rousseauian the natural essence of humanity as a prelude to a more active project to reform it by bringing modern culture more into line with its fundamental nature.  Not that I necessarily agree with most of his final conclusions, but he acknowledges and addresses almost all of the questions and objections that had gone complacently untouched elsewhere, which is admirable.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, rather than making that the end of the book he adds two concluding memorably, amazingly bad chapters (remember I said the book was too long).  First he throws over the tone of careful judiciousness in assessing foreign cultures that he has built up through the book and which one would think would be a prerequisite to being an anthropologist by launching into a random, unhinged attack on Islam and then, as if permanently destabilized by that, proceeds to a number of facile characterizations of various religions and cultures (Islam=masculinity, Buddhism=femininity, etc.), engages in some extravagant pessisim by complaining that human society has been in a state of continual decline since its birth, vaguely and incoherently tries to reconcile Marxism and Buddhism before finally sinking into a sea of meaningless, disjointed abstractions.  So I guess the three chapters sort of cancel each other out and I feel about the same about the book&#8217;s overall quality, just on different grounds now.  If you do read it, just don&#8217;t read the last two chapters and it will be a much more enjoyable experience.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Curt</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-57914</link>
		<author>Curt</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 09:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-57914</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;I read something about Indian tribes which said the chief was credentialed through his success in battle. Braves were also ranked similarly. Also, many primitive tribes in South America and New Guinea were extraordinarily violent and had a high mortality rate for males.&lt;/i&gt;  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The second point is undoutedly true, and the first may be true of some tribes but I'm not sure if it can be generalized.  For one thing, even in the relatively simple, violent conditions of tribal life a leader probably would need to have a more comprehensive skill set than just bravery in battle.  For example, Lévi-Strauss points out that especially for the poorer tribes the primary imperative of tribal chiefs is securing food sources.  Fighting other tribes is undoubtedly one way to do this, but a rather costly and uncertain one.  Often more important is the ability to keep a detailed map of the area in one's head for purposes of foraging and hunting, organizational ability in devising a food-gathering strategy and so forth, all while managing the shifting alliances and loyalties of the group.  Lévi-Strauss also empahizes how totally passive the other members of the tribe often are in letting the chief solve all their problems.  Of course, the tribes he writes about seem to have been so decimated by disease that they didn't encroach on each other all that much.  In any case, I'm not saying that tribal leaders are all wise, simply that it might make intuitive sense that in small groups leaders would be of consistently higher quality than in large ones.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;Incidentally, what do you think of Tristes tropiques? I read Myth and Meaning a few weeks ago and found it pretty interesting.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It's definitely interesting, mainly because he's more reflective than the average conservationist and actually explores his motivations and values in studying indigenous tribes, although I don't think he ever very seriously questions them.  His biases themselves are a bit grating, since he's a pretty conventional noble-savageist and exoticist, and he's pretty convinced that tribal life was much freer than civilized existence, which I'm rather skeptical about.  Plus, whenever he's trying to make a big point (or rather make a not-so-big point seem like one) his wrtiting style often falls into the over-heated airy nothings that French seems to particularly lend itself to in the wrong hands, though maybe in English the translator has squashed that tendency a bit, and on a related note I think the book is a bit too long, though memoirs generally are.  But in general, as the back cover informs us, he seems to have aimed at recapturing the sort of erudite, self-aware travel writing of the "voyages philosophiques" of the 18th and 19th century (and the shadow of the &lt;i&gt;philosophes&lt;/i&gt; certainly hangs over his idolization of primitive tribes), and I'd say he more or less pulls it off.  After reading all too many &lt;i&gt;National Geographic&lt;/i&gt; travelogues, I can't tell you how refreshing that is.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I read something about Indian tribes which said the chief was credentialed through his success in battle. Braves were also ranked similarly. Also, many primitive tribes in South America and New Guinea were extraordinarily violent and had a high mortality rate for males.</i>  </p>

<p>The second point is undoutedly true, and the first may be true of some tribes but I&#8217;m not sure if it can be generalized.  For one thing, even in the relatively simple, violent conditions of tribal life a leader probably would need to have a more comprehensive skill set than just bravery in battle.  For example, Lévi-Strauss points out that especially for the poorer tribes the primary imperative of tribal chiefs is securing food sources.  Fighting other tribes is undoubtedly one way to do this, but a rather costly and uncertain one.  Often more important is the ability to keep a detailed map of the area in one&#8217;s head for purposes of foraging and hunting, organizational ability in devising a food-gathering strategy and so forth, all while managing the shifting alliances and loyalties of the group.  Lévi-Strauss also empahizes how totally passive the other members of the tribe often are in letting the chief solve all their problems.  Of course, the tribes he writes about seem to have been so decimated by disease that they didn&#8217;t encroach on each other all that much.  In any case, I&#8217;m not saying that tribal leaders are all wise, simply that it might make intuitive sense that in small groups leaders would be of consistently higher quality than in large ones.</p>

<p><i>Incidentally, what do you think of Tristes tropiques? I read Myth and Meaning a few weeks ago and found it pretty interesting.</i></p>

<p>It&#8217;s definitely interesting, mainly because he&#8217;s more reflective than the average conservationist and actually explores his motivations and values in studying indigenous tribes, although I don&#8217;t think he ever very seriously questions them.  His biases themselves are a bit grating, since he&#8217;s a pretty conventional noble-savageist and exoticist, and he&#8217;s pretty convinced that tribal life was much freer than civilized existence, which I&#8217;m rather skeptical about.  Plus, whenever he&#8217;s trying to make a big point (or rather make a not-so-big point seem like one) his wrtiting style often falls into the over-heated airy nothings that French seems to particularly lend itself to in the wrong hands, though maybe in English the translator has squashed that tendency a bit, and on a related note I think the book is a bit too long, though memoirs generally are.  But in general, as the back cover informs us, he seems to have aimed at recapturing the sort of erudite, self-aware travel writing of the &#8220;voyages philosophiques&#8221; of the 18th and 19th century (and the shadow of the <i>philosophes</i> certainly hangs over his idolization of primitive tribes), and I&#8217;d say he more or less pulls it off.  After reading all too many <i>National Geographic</i> travelogues, I can&#8217;t tell you how refreshing that is.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-57878</link>
		<author>Dave</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 23:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-57878</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I read something about Indian tribes which said the chief was credentialed through his success in battle. Braves were also ranked similarly. Also, many primitive tribes in South America and New Guinea were extraordinarily violent and had a high mortality rate for males.  So, we if we were like them we might get Dwight Eisenhower or Mike Tyson as president.  Hillary need not apply or maybe she should since she resembles a female Nixon, a street fighter. I don’t know how many of these warriors would be sages.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Today voters usually elect persons who appear pleasant but underneath have inhuman ambition.  What you get are scary persons who are often pathologically driven. Would you want to be president? Having read extensive biographies of Nixon and Johnson that drive to get elected was what they had in common. You have to admire that kind of energy.
 By the way, both Nixon and Johnson were student body presidents of their colleges, though they were both personally unpopular, confirming your observation that the really big shot leaders even at the college level may be not particularly likable.  In more intimate circumstances, such as ones day to day life, leadership takes place in a more positive atmosphere but there are always problem people and problem circumstances.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read something about Indian tribes which said the chief was credentialed through his success in battle. Braves were also ranked similarly. Also, many primitive tribes in South America and New Guinea were extraordinarily violent and had a high mortality rate for males.  So, we if we were like them we might get Dwight Eisenhower or Mike Tyson as president.  Hillary need not apply or maybe she should since she resembles a female Nixon, a street fighter. I don’t know how many of these warriors would be sages.</p>

<p>Today voters usually elect persons who appear pleasant but underneath have inhuman ambition.  What you get are scary persons who are often pathologically driven. Would you want to be president? Having read extensive biographies of Nixon and Johnson that drive to get elected was what they had in common. You have to admire that kind of energy.
 By the way, both Nixon and Johnson were student body presidents of their colleges, though they were both personally unpopular, confirming your observation that the really big shot leaders even at the college level may be not particularly likable.  In more intimate circumstances, such as ones day to day life, leadership takes place in a more positive atmosphere but there are always problem people and problem circumstances.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: El Charno</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-57851</link>
		<author>El Charno</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 21:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-57851</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Good points.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: shonk</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-57847</link>
		<author>shonk</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 15:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2007/05/29/the-sage-savage/#comment-57847</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Nice point.  Another factor is that, especially in a small, fairly primitive tribe, there's not much specialization of labor, so everyone has a pretty good idea of the relative merit of everybody else and, almost as importantly, the leader has enough experience with the tasks he delegates that he knows who is most capable of performing them and when someone's doing a bad enough job to merit intervention.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Neither is true in large-scale democracies; most people have a very poor idea of how good or bad a job a politician is doing because it's impossible to keep track of everything he does.  Likewise, it's extremely unlikely that a, say, Congressman has enough expertise in energy, military, economic, environmental, health and jurisprudence issues to be able to act intelligently in all of those areas or to know when aides or agencies specifically tasked to advise him on or deal with those issues are doing a good or bad job.  In fact, it's highly unlikely that a successful politician is expert in much of anything other than getting elected.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Incidentally, what do you think of &lt;i&gt;Tristes tropiques&lt;/i&gt;?  I read &lt;a href="http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Meaning-Cracking-Code-Culture/dp/0805210385" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Myth and Meaning&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt; a few weeks ago and found it pretty interesting.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice point.  Another factor is that, especially in a small, fairly primitive tribe, there&#8217;s not much specialization of labor, so everyone has a pretty good idea of the relative merit of everybody else and, almost as importantly, the leader has enough experience with the tasks he delegates that he knows who is most capable of performing them and when someone&#8217;s doing a bad enough job to merit intervention.  </p>

<p>Neither is true in large-scale democracies; most people have a very poor idea of how good or bad a job a politician is doing because it&#8217;s impossible to keep track of everything he does.  Likewise, it&#8217;s extremely unlikely that a, say, Congressman has enough expertise in energy, military, economic, environmental, health and jurisprudence issues to be able to act intelligently in all of those areas or to know when aides or agencies specifically tasked to advise him on or deal with those issues are doing a good or bad job.  In fact, it&#8217;s highly unlikely that a successful politician is expert in much of anything other than getting elected.</p>

<p>Incidentally, what do you think of <i>Tristes tropiques</i>?  I read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Meaning-Cracking-Code-Culture/dp/0805210385" rel="nofollow"><i>Myth and Meaning</i></a> a few weeks ago and found it pretty interesting.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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