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	<title>Comments on: Why sloth isn&#8217;t a vice</title>
	<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/</link>
	<description>A graduate student in mathematics and a modern languages major take on politics and culture with the following aspirational motto: ‘Deregulate your mind.’</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: shonk</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1122</link>
		<author>shonk</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1122</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;Plus, remember Hayek’s liberal position on economic management: he said, yes managing an economy, which is to say determining people’s preferences and then assigning values to them, is an enormously complicated task–so complicated that it is behind the scope of any one person to manage, which is why people need to be allowed to make their own calculations for themselves. One would hope that a similar realization would produce an similar conclusion in politics.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Right.  In this context, the "best" solution is not to come up with ever-more-complicated ways of managing the economy, but the (relatively) simple method of not &lt;i&gt;trying&lt;/i&gt; to manage the economy.  But that insight isn't one that naturally springs to mind if you have the wrong assumptions going in.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Regarding the "dangerous" comment, my point was simply that if we go in with the false assumption that complicated (unpredictable, whatever) problems require complicated solutions, then knowing that a problem is complicated is dangerous.  Obviously the truth isn't dangerous absent these false assumptions, but I do think this assumption is more widespread than we'd like to admit.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;if the idea is true it’s probably more dangerous not to acknowledge that truth for reasons ideological or otherwise.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Certainly, ignoring the truth for ideological reasons is a bad idea.  However, the cliché that "the truth isn't dangerous" is patently false, because it ignores the fact that knowledge is (for humans) necessarily incomplete.  Certain combinations of knowledge and ignorance complement each other rather more destructively than is healthy.  For example, knowing how to build an atomic bomb without the knowledge/moral awareness/whatever that killing innocent people is bad is more dangerous than having the same moral lack and &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; knowing how to build an atomic bomb.  Replace moral ignorance with certain assumptions about the relative worth of people based on their beliefs/skin color/citizenship/etc. in the above example and the conclusion still holds.  Admittedly, something of a pathological example, but I think it illustrates my point.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That all having been said, I've already said my post was overly-reductionist; it was intended to be thought-provoking, not definitive.  I certainly agree that people are less predictable than "natural forces" (as you say, insofar as they are distinct) and, that being the case, it's obviously going to be harder to come up with political than technological solutions.  In fact, given your observation in the p.p.s., it may well be &lt;i&gt;impossible&lt;/i&gt; to use scientific/technical techniques to solve political problems (certainly the example of the "scientific" socialists should be a cautionary one).  &lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Plus, remember Hayek’s liberal position on economic management: he said, yes managing an economy, which is to say determining people’s preferences and then assigning values to them, is an enormously complicated task–so complicated that it is behind the scope of any one person to manage, which is why people need to be allowed to make their own calculations for themselves. One would hope that a similar realization would produce an similar conclusion in politics.</i></p>

<p>Right.  In this context, the &#8220;best&#8221; solution is not to come up with ever-more-complicated ways of managing the economy, but the (relatively) simple method of not <i>trying</i> to manage the economy.  But that insight isn&#8217;t one that naturally springs to mind if you have the wrong assumptions going in.  </p>

<p>Regarding the &#8220;dangerous&#8221; comment, my point was simply that if we go in with the false assumption that complicated (unpredictable, whatever) problems require complicated solutions, then knowing that a problem is complicated is dangerous.  Obviously the truth isn&#8217;t dangerous absent these false assumptions, but I do think this assumption is more widespread than we&#8217;d like to admit.  </p>

<p><i>if the idea is true it’s probably more dangerous not to acknowledge that truth for reasons ideological or otherwise.</i></p>

<p>Certainly, ignoring the truth for ideological reasons is a bad idea.  However, the cliché that &#8220;the truth isn&#8217;t dangerous&#8221; is patently false, because it ignores the fact that knowledge is (for humans) necessarily incomplete.  Certain combinations of knowledge and ignorance complement each other rather more destructively than is healthy.  For example, knowing how to build an atomic bomb without the knowledge/moral awareness/whatever that killing innocent people is bad is more dangerous than having the same moral lack and <em>not</em> knowing how to build an atomic bomb.  Replace moral ignorance with certain assumptions about the relative worth of people based on their beliefs/skin color/citizenship/etc. in the above example and the conclusion still holds.  Admittedly, something of a pathological example, but I think it illustrates my point.</p>

<p>That all having been said, I&#8217;ve already said my post was overly-reductionist; it was intended to be thought-provoking, not definitive.  I certainly agree that people are less predictable than &#8220;natural forces&#8221; (as you say, insofar as they are distinct) and, that being the case, it&#8217;s obviously going to be harder to come up with political than technological solutions.  In fact, given your observation in the p.p.s., it may well be <i>impossible</i> to use scientific/technical techniques to solve political problems (certainly the example of the &#8220;scientific&#8221; socialists should be a cautionary one).  </p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Curt</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1121</link>
		<author>Curt</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1121</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;p.p.s.  I am also not necessarily arguing that human minds are more complicated than natural forces (a. although they might be [insofar as they are distinct]), I'm simply suggesting that they are more &lt;i&gt;unpredictable&lt;/i&gt;.  One of the foundational assumptions of the natural sciences behave in the same way everywhere, which is by no means a settled assumption regarding human behavior.  &lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.p.s.  I am also not necessarily arguing that human minds are more complicated than natural forces (a. although they might be [insofar as they are distinct]), I&#8217;m simply suggesting that they are more <i>unpredictable</i>.  One of the foundational assumptions of the natural sciences behave in the same way everywhere, which is by no means a settled assumption regarding human behavior.  </p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Curt</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1120</link>
		<author>Curt</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1120</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;p.s.  Plus, the fact that people still believe in ridiculous political ideologies that don't work at all tends to support the idea that people are more complicated to understand than impervious natural forces, since you could say that our understanding of human motivations is in a pre-scientific or pre-paradigmatic state (though one could argue about whether it would be possible not to be), since we still haven't really hit on many, if any, basic standards and assumptions that everyone shares or at least accepts.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s.  Plus, the fact that people still believe in ridiculous political ideologies that don&#8217;t work at all tends to support the idea that people are more complicated to understand than impervious natural forces, since you could say that our understanding of human motivations is in a pre-scientific or pre-paradigmatic state (though one could argue about whether it would be possible not to be), since we still haven&#8217;t really hit on many, if any, basic standards and assumptions that everyone shares or at least accepts.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Curt</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1119</link>
		<author>Curt</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1119</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;Also, although it’s true, I think the “politics is hard because people are complicated” attitude is dangerous, because there’s a tendency to think that complicated problems require complicated solutions.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, and in any event if the idea is true it's probably more dangerous not to acknowledge that truth for reasons ideological or otherwise.  Plus, remember Hayek's liberal position on economic management: he said, yes managing an economy, which is to say determining people's preferences and then assigning values to them, is an enormously complicated task--so complicated that it is behind the scope of any one person to manage, which is why people need to be allowed to make their own calculations for themselves.  One would hope that a similar realization would produce an similar conclusion in politics.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Also, although it’s true, I think the “politics is hard because people are complicated” attitude is dangerous, because there’s a tendency to think that complicated problems require complicated solutions.</i></p>

<p>I&#8217;m not sure I entirely agree with that, and in any event if the idea is true it&#8217;s probably more dangerous not to acknowledge that truth for reasons ideological or otherwise.  Plus, remember Hayek&#8217;s liberal position on economic management: he said, yes managing an economy, which is to say determining people&#8217;s preferences and then assigning values to them, is an enormously complicated task&#8211;so complicated that it is behind the scope of any one person to manage, which is why people need to be allowed to make their own calculations for themselves.  One would hope that a similar realization would produce an similar conclusion in politics.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1114</link>
		<author>Dave</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1114</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I take it your point is that compared to  politics technology is more efficient in producing results that benefit humanity and the reason for this is one recruits laziness as motivation for innovation and the other is held back by laziness in the populace in choosing good leaders or complying with the plan the utopian plans of the leadership.
I don’t disagree but I would modify your position slightly.
 It is true that many innovations, especially in the modern age were labor saving in origin or perhaps more broadly to solve problems or achieve advantages.   As the old saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. 
Agricultural, manufacturing and medical advances were promoted to improve peoples well-being, and make money for the entrepreneur.
 The invention of various military weapons and tactics was an area in which laziness was not involved, unless soldiers got tired of killing people with swords and invented guns as a labor saving device.
The whole field of esthetics, everything from having a nice lawn and washing your car to composing poetry are projects requiring much work and also require overcoming laziness, in order to accomplish. You actually increase your work when you seek esthetic achievement, though your motivation is esthetic satisfaction, not escape from drudgery. (As exemplified in your pictures) In fact if I were even lazier than I am now I wouldn’t have to cut the lawn, which grows too fast on account of too much effort fertilizing and watering it.&lt;br /&gt;
I do agree that labor saving technology is wonderful because it reduces drudgery. It is much taken for granted. Access to the use of technology equals wealth. Everyone is much wealthier now than in the past.  That is why I have trouble feeling sorry for the material circumstances of “the poor.” I sympathize with their social circumstances, but no one knows what to do about that.
As for politics, I am  convinced that a lazy do nothing government is the best government except that there is no such thing. At least it would do no harm, if it would get out of the way.  How many people get elected by saying, “I will spend most of my time on vacation instead of passing more laws that interfere with your life?” They always have to promise to do something, which risks making things worse. Just ask our president, Lyndon B. Bush.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take it your point is that compared to  politics technology is more efficient in producing results that benefit humanity and the reason for this is one recruits laziness as motivation for innovation and the other is held back by laziness in the populace in choosing good leaders or complying with the plan the utopian plans of the leadership.
I don’t disagree but I would modify your position slightly.
 It is true that many innovations, especially in the modern age were labor saving in origin or perhaps more broadly to solve problems or achieve advantages.   As the old saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. 
Agricultural, manufacturing and medical advances were promoted to improve peoples well-being, and make money for the entrepreneur.
 The invention of various military weapons and tactics was an area in which laziness was not involved, unless soldiers got tired of killing people with swords and invented guns as a labor saving device.
The whole field of esthetics, everything from having a nice lawn and washing your car to composing poetry are projects requiring much work and also require overcoming laziness, in order to accomplish. You actually increase your work when you seek esthetic achievement, though your motivation is esthetic satisfaction, not escape from drudgery. (As exemplified in your pictures) In fact if I were even lazier than I am now I wouldn’t have to cut the lawn, which grows too fast on account of too much effort fertilizing and watering it.<br />
I do agree that labor saving technology is wonderful because it reduces drudgery. It is much taken for granted. Access to the use of technology equals wealth. Everyone is much wealthier now than in the past.  That is why I have trouble feeling sorry for the material circumstances of “the poor.” I sympathize with their social circumstances, but no one knows what to do about that.
As for politics, I am  convinced that a lazy do nothing government is the best government except that there is no such thing. At least it would do no harm, if it would get out of the way.  How many people get elected by saying, “I will spend most of my time on vacation instead of passing more laws that interfere with your life?” They always have to promise to do something, which risks making things worse. Just ask our president, Lyndon B. Bush.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: shonk</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1109</link>
		<author>shonk</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2005 01:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1109</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;Isn’t the real reason science and technology advances more quickly than politics that science generally requires us only to make progress in relation to our relatively more stable environment, whereas politics requires us to make progress with respect to each other, who are considerably less predictable?&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It's not nice to respond to my overly-reductionist rant with thoughtful objections.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Seriously, though, there are obviously multiple causes for any complicated problem and people are obviously more complicated than, say, gravity (you'll also note that I intentionally omitted the "politics is harder than science" option in paragraph 5, though that was basically the point of graphs 6-8).  Which is to say, yes, that's certainly part of it.  Still, it's not entirely a tenable position, since most bad politics are due to either obvious ignorance of what people are like (e.g. Communism) or blindingly unsubstantiated assumptions that people can miraculously change (pretty much every revolutionary movement ever).  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Also, although it's true, I think the "politics is hard because people are complicated" attitude is dangerous, because there's a tendency to think that complicated problems require complicated solutions.  In reality, the more complicated a problem you're facing, the more simple the solutions you should look for, at least initially.  The effects of a complicated attempted solution on a complicated problem are exponentially harder to evaluate than the effects of a simple proposed solution on a complicated problem, simply because of the vastly greater number of possible interactions of problem and solution.  Obviously, simplicity, in and of itself, isn't sufficient, but I think history generally supports the notion that simple solutions work better than complicated ones.  Put it this way: I would be surprised if historians 500 years from now can objectively evaluate the EU constitution as having been more successful than the US constitution, even if they agree more with the spirit of the former.  &lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Isn’t the real reason science and technology advances more quickly than politics that science generally requires us only to make progress in relation to our relatively more stable environment, whereas politics requires us to make progress with respect to each other, who are considerably less predictable?</i></p>

<p>It&#8217;s not nice to respond to my overly-reductionist rant with thoughtful objections.</p>

<p>Seriously, though, there are obviously multiple causes for any complicated problem and people are obviously more complicated than, say, gravity (you&#8217;ll also note that I intentionally omitted the &#8220;politics is harder than science&#8221; option in paragraph 5, though that was basically the point of graphs 6-8).  Which is to say, yes, that&#8217;s certainly part of it.  Still, it&#8217;s not entirely a tenable position, since most bad politics are due to either obvious ignorance of what people are like (e.g. Communism) or blindingly unsubstantiated assumptions that people can miraculously change (pretty much every revolutionary movement ever).  </p>

<p>Also, although it&#8217;s true, I think the &#8220;politics is hard because people are complicated&#8221; attitude is dangerous, because there&#8217;s a tendency to think that complicated problems require complicated solutions.  In reality, the more complicated a problem you&#8217;re facing, the more simple the solutions you should look for, at least initially.  The effects of a complicated attempted solution on a complicated problem are exponentially harder to evaluate than the effects of a simple proposed solution on a complicated problem, simply because of the vastly greater number of possible interactions of problem and solution.  Obviously, simplicity, in and of itself, isn&#8217;t sufficient, but I think history generally supports the notion that simple solutions work better than complicated ones.  Put it this way: I would be surprised if historians 500 years from now can objectively evaluate the EU constitution as having been more successful than the US constitution, even if they agree more with the spirit of the former.  </p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: George Potter</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1108</link>
		<author>George Potter</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2005 00:10:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1108</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As I've noted many times before, the main advancement of politics from ancient times is the sleight-of-hand transform of 'divine right of kings' to 'will of the people'. Both are mystical in nature, but the latter gives the serfs a nice feeling. ;)&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I&#8217;ve noted many times before, the main advancement of politics from ancient times is the sleight-of-hand transform of &#8216;divine right of kings&#8217; to &#8216;will of the people&#8217;. Both are mystical in nature, but the latter gives the serfs a nice feeling. <img src='http://www.sellingwaves.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Curt</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1104</link>
		<author>Curt</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 06:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/09/22/why-sloth-isnt-a-vice/#comment-1104</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Isn't the real reason science and technology advances more quickly than politics that science generally requires us only to make progress in relation to our relatively more stable environment, whereas politics requires us to make progress with respect to each other, who are considerably less predictable?&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the real reason science and technology advances more quickly than politics that science generally requires us only to make progress in relation to our relatively more stable environment, whereas politics requires us to make progress with respect to each other, who are considerably less predictable?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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