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	<title>Comments on: Cultural Banach space</title>
	<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/</link>
	<description>A graduate student in mathematics and a modern languages major take on politics and culture with the following aspirational motto: ‘Deregulate your mind.’</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: petya</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-507</link>
		<author>petya</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Apr 2005 13:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-507</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;i haven't had time to respond but i will some time today! i promise. curt, there was no need to apologize. &lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i haven&#8217;t had time to respond but i will some time today! i promise. curt, there was no need to apologize. </p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-505</link>
		<author>Dave</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-505</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;"When a norm prevents homosexuals from enjoying the same benefits of heterosexuals (such as visiting one’s partner in the hospital during family-only situations, qualifying for their spouse’s insurance, etc.), your norm’s value-neutrality is completely destroyed, and the result is infringement upon citizens’ very rights. " Brook&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Good point,however,provisions often get made for ordinary people to get around injustices in the real world. These don’t make front page news. The example of not being able to visit a sick spouse is not terribly realistic. Even under the new $22 billion dollar HIPPA regulations to protect everyone’s privacy in the health care system, if you are conscious you can authorize anyone to visit you that you want. You can also pre-designate anyone to be your confidant or surrogate. As far as health coverage of significant others, many big (i.e. “evil”) corporations provide it. However, if gay marriage is made constitutional many companies could drop coverage except for married gays- see http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/may2004/nf20040514&#95;1508&#95;db035.htm.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Many years ago when things were not so complicated, I recall that a pretty young woman had a motorcycle accident and was injured. At the end of visiting hours the nurse informed the apparently male partner who was dressed in jeans and had short hair that “Sir, visiting hours are over.” The visitor wheeled indignantly and said “Don’t call me Sir! I’m a woman.” Perhaps the proper way to address a visitor today would be “Hay you!”  The evils of heterosexism have been around for a long time. Good luck to the cultural police in their efforts to reeducating us earthlings.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When a norm prevents homosexuals from enjoying the same benefits of heterosexuals (such as visiting one’s partner in the hospital during family-only situations, qualifying for their spouse’s insurance, etc.), your norm’s value-neutrality is completely destroyed, and the result is infringement upon citizens’ very rights. &#8221; Brook</p>

<p>Good point,however,provisions often get made for ordinary people to get around injustices in the real world. These don’t make front page news. The example of not being able to visit a sick spouse is not terribly realistic. Even under the new $22 billion dollar HIPPA regulations to protect everyone’s privacy in the health care system, if you are conscious you can authorize anyone to visit you that you want. You can also pre-designate anyone to be your confidant or surrogate. As far as health coverage of significant others, many big (i.e. “evil”) corporations provide it. However, if gay marriage is made constitutional many companies could drop coverage except for married gays- see <a href="http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/may2004/nf20040514&#95;1508&#95;db035.htm." rel="nofollow">http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/may2004/nf20040514&#95;1508&#95;db035.htm.</a></p>

<p>Many years ago when things were not so complicated, I recall that a pretty young woman had a motorcycle accident and was injured. At the end of visiting hours the nurse informed the apparently male partner who was dressed in jeans and had short hair that “Sir, visiting hours are over.” The visitor wheeled indignantly and said “Don’t call me Sir! I’m a woman.” Perhaps the proper way to address a visitor today would be “Hay you!”  The evils of heterosexism have been around for a long time. Good luck to the cultural police in their efforts to reeducating us earthlings.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: shonk</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-504</link>
		<author>shonk</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Apr 2005 18:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-504</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Brooke,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My vagueness in defining damages was intentional.  You can interpret the term as broadly or as narrowly as you like and my point still stands.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That having been said, I assume regular readers of this site are well aware of my opinions on politics and normative legislation.  Still, it's rather silly to say that a homosexual (or anyone else, for that matter) has a "right" to be covered by his/her spouse's insurance.  Sure, we'd all &lt;em&gt;like&lt;/em&gt; to get such coverage, &lt;i&gt;ceteris paribus&lt;/i&gt;, but rights, if they exist at all, must have some foundation in moral imperative, not in wishful thinking.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;(Note: I'm not saying gay couples shouldn't get the same insurance coverage as their straight colleagues; I personally think it's rather silly that many employers will offer insurance coverage to some spouses but not all.  I'm just saying they have no &lt;em&gt;obligation&lt;/em&gt; to offer coverage to &lt;em&gt;any&lt;/em&gt; spouses, nor are they obligated to avoid doing things I think are silly.)&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brooke,</p>

<p>My vagueness in defining damages was intentional.  You can interpret the term as broadly or as narrowly as you like and my point still stands.</p>

<p>That having been said, I assume regular readers of this site are well aware of my opinions on politics and normative legislation.  Still, it&#8217;s rather silly to say that a homosexual (or anyone else, for that matter) has a &#8220;right&#8221; to be covered by his/her spouse&#8217;s insurance.  Sure, we&#8217;d all <em>like</em> to get such coverage, <i>ceteris paribus</i>, but rights, if they exist at all, must have some foundation in moral imperative, not in wishful thinking.</p>

<p>(Note: I&#8217;m not saying gay couples shouldn&#8217;t get the same insurance coverage as their straight colleagues; I personally think it&#8217;s rather silly that many employers will offer insurance coverage to some spouses but not all.  I&#8217;m just saying they have no <em>obligation</em> to offer coverage to <em>any</em> spouses, nor are they obligated to avoid doing things I think are silly.)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Brooke</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-503</link>
		<author>Brooke</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Apr 2005 06:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-503</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The discussion you, Petya and Curt are having caught my attention.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I agree with you in that the problem is not the lack of acknowledgement of heteronormativity's existence.  Generally I think people on both sides of this "norm" recognize the extent to which people are assumed to have a certain sexual preference based upon their biological sex, for better or for worse. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;However, you stated that the norms that are 'bad' are so only because they do damage to those who violate the norm.  Since 'damage' wasn't elaborated and you mentioned that one could argue those observing the norm are also damaged by others' norm violations, I assume you were referring to the psychological damage you briefly hinted at. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If that's true, I have to say your statement must be taken a step further to be accurate, because not only are people damaged by their norm violation in this regard, they are also penalized for it.  When a norm prevents homosexuals from enjoying the same benefits of heterosexuals (such as visiting one's partner in the hospital during family-only situations, qualifying for their spouse's insurance, etc.), your norm's value-neutrality is completely destroyed, and the result is infringement upon citizens' very rights.  The dilemma then is no longer people's personal views and behaviors toward the infractions of the norm, but how the norm is unjustly made an official prerequisite within institutional codes and governmental laws.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The discussion you, Petya and Curt are having caught my attention.  </p>

<p>I agree with you in that the problem is not the lack of acknowledgement of heteronormativity&#8217;s existence.  Generally I think people on both sides of this &#8220;norm&#8221; recognize the extent to which people are assumed to have a certain sexual preference based upon their biological sex, for better or for worse. </p>

<p>However, you stated that the norms that are &#8216;bad&#8217; are so only because they do damage to those who violate the norm.  Since &#8216;damage&#8217; wasn&#8217;t elaborated and you mentioned that one could argue those observing the norm are also damaged by others&#8217; norm violations, I assume you were referring to the psychological damage you briefly hinted at. </p>

<p>If that&#8217;s true, I have to say your statement must be taken a step further to be accurate, because not only are people damaged by their norm violation in this regard, they are also penalized for it.  When a norm prevents homosexuals from enjoying the same benefits of heterosexuals (such as visiting one&#8217;s partner in the hospital during family-only situations, qualifying for their spouse&#8217;s insurance, etc.), your norm&#8217;s value-neutrality is completely destroyed, and the result is infringement upon citizens&#8217; very rights.  The dilemma then is no longer people&#8217;s personal views and behaviors toward the infractions of the norm, but how the norm is unjustly made an official prerequisite within institutional codes and governmental laws.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-502</link>
		<author>Dave</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2005 22:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-502</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;What is all this falderal about normative this and that? So, most people are dextronormative. Everything from school desks to scissors are made for right handers. I’m a lefty, so I’ve just had to adjust. Oh! It’s so unfair being a victim of a society’s unfeeling cruelty, Boo-hoo. And my dog isn’t woofo-normative. Instead he just makes a croaking sound. Everyone laughs at me when I take him for a walk. And he’s been excluded from dog shows. We need to change our bad American society so that these injustices can be redressed.
 But you say these things are trivial compared to the much more explosive issues surrounding sex. To me hyper-equivalence of gays or other sexual variants is not that high on the list of life’s important public issues. In my opinion, persons’ sex lives are best kept private. I think most people will tacitly accept people for what they are nowadays, so controversy is not indicated. There is just no need to parade it around. It’s just too bad if gays can’t get every thing they want.  If they did they would be the only ones.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But, if you want to debate it, things cut both ways. Both those who promote homosexuality and those who accept the majoritarian position have potentially strong emotions invested here. Why do gay activists think that they owed instantaneous public acceptance of their lifestyle while the majority is expected to just stuff it? In the insular subculture of the campus and Hollywood homo-equivalence may be a current fad, along with assorted “isms, exclusions and oppressions” (Remember the Sandinistas?) but don’t lose too much sleep if it turns out to be another dud as a prescription for wi&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is all this falderal about normative this and that? So, most people are dextronormative. Everything from school desks to scissors are made for right handers. I’m a lefty, so I’ve just had to adjust. Oh! It’s so unfair being a victim of a society’s unfeeling cruelty, Boo-hoo. And my dog isn’t woofo-normative. Instead he just makes a croaking sound. Everyone laughs at me when I take him for a walk. And he’s been excluded from dog shows. We need to change our bad American society so that these injustices can be redressed.
 But you say these things are trivial compared to the much more explosive issues surrounding sex. To me hyper-equivalence of gays or other sexual variants is not that high on the list of life’s important public issues. In my opinion, persons’ sex lives are best kept private. I think most people will tacitly accept people for what they are nowadays, so controversy is not indicated. There is just no need to parade it around. It’s just too bad if gays can’t get every thing they want.  If they did they would be the only ones.</p>

<p>But, if you want to debate it, things cut both ways. Both those who promote homosexuality and those who accept the majoritarian position have potentially strong emotions invested here. Why do gay activists think that they owed instantaneous public acceptance of their lifestyle while the majority is expected to just stuff it? In the insular subculture of the campus and Hollywood homo-equivalence may be a current fad, along with assorted “isms, exclusions and oppressions” (Remember the Sandinistas?) but don’t lose too much sleep if it turns out to be another dud as a prescription for wi</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Curt</title>
		<link>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-501</link>
		<author>Curt</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sellingwaves.com/2005/04/08/cultural-banach-space/#comment-501</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I responded to Petya's post on her site, where it's probably more needed, since I disagree with her more.  I should simply point out what I find to be a slight logical fallacy with your point.  It's true that there are many "normative" assumptions that have positive consequences, so you're point that "normalization" is not &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; negative is well-taken.  However, that does not mean that "heteronormalization," assuming that is even a coherent concept, is one of them.  In other words, bathing and not killing people may be good norms, and heterosexuality not.  The point is simply that the value of one does not prove the value of the other.  Of course, it's heretical these days among university crowd to argue that maybe this "heternormalization" (God I hate that word) actually does have positive benefits insofar as it tends to propogate the species.  But then of course at that point the whole concept begins to look like a pretty superfluous extension of simple Darwinian mechanics.  Then again, sociobiology has been roundly denounced by the same people for precisely this reason among others.  It all comes down to your principles, after all.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I responded to Petya&#8217;s post on her site, where it&#8217;s probably more needed, since I disagree with her more.  I should simply point out what I find to be a slight logical fallacy with your point.  It&#8217;s true that there are many &#8220;normative&#8221; assumptions that have positive consequences, so you&#8217;re point that &#8220;normalization&#8221; is not <i>a priori</i> negative is well-taken.  However, that does not mean that &#8220;heteronormalization,&#8221; assuming that is even a coherent concept, is one of them.  In other words, bathing and not killing people may be good norms, and heterosexuality not.  The point is simply that the value of one does not prove the value of the other.  Of course, it&#8217;s heretical these days among university crowd to argue that maybe this &#8220;heternormalization&#8221; (God I hate that word) actually does have positive benefits insofar as it tends to propogate the species.  But then of course at that point the whole concept begins to look like a pretty superfluous extension of simple Darwinian mechanics.  Then again, sociobiology has been roundly denounced by the same people for precisely this reason among others.  It all comes down to your principles, after all.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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